Being Relentless about Passion: Interview with Founder & CEO of The Culture Theory, Jake Posner
Jake Posner is the founder & CEO of The Culture Theory, a music management company based in New York. I knew I had to interview him after I read about his story on The Culture Theory’s website. After a few years of working in the advertising industry post college, Jake was eager to find his way into the music industry. One fateful night after work, he stumbled upon a reddit video of a little known band at the time called A R I Z O N A. To use his beautifully written words, “This is normally where the story ends; the rational fears of the unknown start to seep in, ‘how would I even go about any of this’ repeats over and over in your mind, but for some reason that day, in that moment, it didn’t matter. Passion prevailed and I took the leap, which was honestly the hardest part of all…”
It’s now been 8 years since the fateful reddit discovery. A R I Z O N A has gone on to sign with a record label, release three albums, and generate hundreds of millions of streams. Jake not only still manages them but has expanded his company to include songwriter and producer management.
Jake reminded me of what it means to be relentless in following your passion and what’s possible when we do. I spoke to him about:
The fateful conversation that put him on a journey to find what he loved doing
Tapping into passion and the value of shooting your shot
How he thinks about the financial side of following passion
Evolving his business
What it means to believe that everyone can win in music
Note: The following interview has been lightly edited for clarity and length. While every effort has been made to preserve the integrity of the conversation, please be aware that the quotes may not be verbatim but reflect the essence of the dialogue.
What are you up to in life right now?
Life for me right now is really good - I just got married in July and am happier and less stressed out than I have been in a long time. I’m very fulfilled in a lot of ways and I think I've gained a lot of perspective lately that has brought me back to the nature of what I’m doing at the core: it's never been about chasing money or big deals, as much as it's about the ethos of how lucky we are that we actually get to be a part of this small, yet mighty community of passionate humans and be our most creative, expressive selves every day. Success and money are simply bi-products of pouring that passion into our respective crafts.
I'm just grateful. I'm really, really grateful. But beyond that I'm trying to posture my business, my career, the things that I'm doing, especially in a very uncertain industry that is the music industry, to look forward and to look towards the next 30 to 40 years, rather than just the next 2 or 3.
I'm in a growth mindset right now in terms of the company, in terms of the business I'm building, in terms of how I'm approaching what we're doing, thinking about strategic partnerships, all that stuff. But I'm just excited, and I feel like I can see further in a lot of ways than I've been able to in a long time, probably since finding A R I Z O N A.
I listened to an episode of the “Where are all my friends podcast?” where you were interviewed and mentioned a really cool story about your dad sitting you down at age 16 and urging you to do something with your life and career that you were really passionate about. What was the impact that experience had on you?
I carry it with me every day. My parents have been so incredibly supportive throughout my entire journey. Age 16 was that time period where we were getting into SAT and ACT prep and I'm the oldest child. So my parents really just started thinking about the big career stuff and the existential nature of their child getting older. That conversation was beyond impactful, more than I even realized at the time. When my dad said that at the time it wasn’t like my jaw dropped on the floor, and I was like, “Wow!” What was I supposed to do? Where am I supposed to go?” I was a 16 year old kid living under my parents’ roof with no definitive career intentions in mind at all.
I do believe in the general mindset of doing what you love. You'll get good at it. Money will come. It will figure its way out. I think that was such an important impetus for me that I think compounded with a lot of things. I'm not a religious person but I'm a really spiritual person. A lot of things that I like to think happened for a reason around that time just came with digging into things that I love. I love playing video games. And around that time I went downstairs and I kept playing video games. All of a sudden I got thrown into a game with Soulja Boy Tell ‘Em and all of his friends and started meeting these artists and seeing behind the curtain of what success in the music industry looks like.
I didn't know where I was supposed to land for probably the next 10 years that followed that. But I am here now, older, a little bit wiser. I see the chain of events and I'm so glad that I leaned into what I was passionate about because I'm so fulfilled by the things that I've done and the things that I'm doing. I am not one of those people that work for the weekend. I wake up excited every day and stoked about what I'm doing. There's a million things that I wanna try to do. Work can certainly be stressful but I’ve been able to do this. I've been able to live the life that I've wanted to live. Every industry comes with challenges but I really have very little to complain about.
Leaning into passion seems to be such a big theme of your life. On your website, you wrote about the fateful decision to reach out to A R I Z O N A after discovering a video of theirs on Reddit. You said that passion prevailed over fear of the unknown. How did you tap into that passion?
Exposure therapy in a way. In college the stakes were a lot lower. I would make music with people and I would write on blogs for free. It wasn't like I was this super high value editor that was running the blogs. I was just a kid that was posting about music and I wanted to find my place.
I left school and went into advertising. After a few years, I was kind of at the end of my rope and I didn't think the brand world was exactly it for me. I was just not waking up excited to do it every day. I was surrounded by awesome brands and people that were capable of doing incredible things, but that moment just wasn't it for me.
And then all of a sudden, super die hard music fan Jake stumbles upon this band that knocked my socks off. They had 70 followers and no email or contact information - all I knew was they were in New Jersey. It was scary and crazy but I think the thing that pushed me over the edge was that I just so happened to be at that perfect point in my life where I could say, “Fuck it. What do I really have to lose?” I was in my existential moment - recently single (and thought girls might like a band manager), trying to find my purpose, trying to find that visceral “ah ha.” And my parents made it easier. My mom gets credit for this one. She said, “Jake, you are in your twenties. When you're in your thirties, you're gonna have a mortgage. You're gonna have a family. You're gonna have responsibilities that come with being an adult.” Dad gets credit for this too because I can hear both of their voices.
Your twenties is the time to try and fail. What's the worst that happens, really? My parents said you can come and live on Long Island if you need to. You’re fine, there’s nothing to stress about. I think just knowing that I wasn't risking as much as I thought I was at the time put the risk into perspective. It might feel scary to you but in the scheme of things, what are you really risking by putting yourself out there? A little bit of embarrassment if they didn’t like me. And then you move on with your life and the next thing finds you. But I think the reason why I'm so relentless about the passion thing is these experiences and putting myself out there have led to incredible things. Not being afraid to do that has led to incredible things. And I still learn those lessons everyday.
I have learned the value of shooting a shot. I pinch myself all the time. I was working on a song for Kygo last year and I wanted to figure out who could help with a feature. I shoot for the moon with everything I do. Because why not? We’re here. I wanted to see if we could get Adele. I remember writing a heartfelt and passionate note to Jonathan Dickins who is Adele's manager.
Not only did he listen, he responded, and we had a conversation. Adele didn’t end up being on the song but we actually got a chance to discuss. And then here I am having a discourse with a guy who is an incredibly successful human being - we had a real conversation about something that was possible…all I had to do was knock. I think that’s my philosophy overall, every door can be open. You just can’t be afraid to knock.
How do you talk to people about the money aspect? I imagine a lot of people get excited about following their passion and get stopped by the fear of, “how will I ever make money?”
Even where I sit now, I'm not in a place where I've been able to accomplish all my financial hopes and dreams. I think that we get too attached to outcomes more so than we do the journey. Not only is it detrimental to do so, but it actually can completely toxify your entire journey when you’re not achieving those things. I remember my thirtieth birthday, looking back and thinking about how every year I'd compare myself to everyone else of varying ages. I’d think, man, Khalid was in his twenties when he hit gold. Everyone’s journey is different and everyone’s journey is long. I think that’s why you have to fundamentally forget the money part and ask: Are you enjoying yourself? Are you doing what you wanna do every day? That is way more valuable than what you're paying for and what you're buying. Are you enjoying your journey? Do you feel like you're on the right path?
It is not possible, nor is it fair, to try to tell somebody who is literally in crippling debt and struggling to just get by month to month, “Oh, don't worry about money.” Of course, we all need to find ways to make money. And look, these are lessons that I'm learning now as I turn 32 years old and have just gotten married and am buying a house. And I'm like, “Okay, we have to pay for things for sure and we have to find ways to make our business work for us.” But I don’t want to wake up every day thinking, “How am I gonna find $6,000?” That sounds like an exhausting mission versus saying, “What songs can we make happen today? Who should I be sending them to? " That's the fun part. I always say money's a byproduct of doing your job well. You gotta love what you're doing. If you love what you're doing, you're gonna do good work. If you do good work, the byproduct will present itself.
I turn 32 in 2 days and I've been fine this whole way. It's all worked out. I haven't been able to buy my Bentley and my Rolls Royce yet but I've got nothing to complain about because I'm just happy to be here.
Let’s talk about your business. Not only are you managing artists but you’re now also managing producers and songwriters. What has your experience been like evolving as an entrepreneur and expanding your business?
I don't know if it's been a linear path because I don't think there is one in the music business. This business started with just A R I Z O N A. When I signed them and started working with them I thought, “This is it. This is all I'm gonna do. We're gonna make this the biggest thing ever and we're all gonna walk away with a hundred million dollars and be good and figure out whatever comes after that.” And you know, as in any journey, you learn and you grow.
You're a business. You're a company. You figure out where your struggles are. You figure out where you make your gains. I got to a point in time to where I said, okay, A R I Z O N A takes a few years to make a record, so I have to figure out other things that I can do to fill my time. It wasn't even as much about money as it was about growth. I wanted to grow. I wanted to learn my business. I wanted to be able to diversify. A lot of it happened naturally. This goes with my whole philosophy of just following your path. Before I knew it, I was managing A R I Z O N A’s protege, Lindsay Lohan's sister Aliana along with a few other things - I don’t work with them still but I certainly learned a lot along the way. One big takeaway I really sat with was when you are an artist manager, you effectively make a commitment to live through the lens of your artist. You are devoted to their life. That’s just part of what comes with management. And I didn’t know if that was exactly what I wanted to do for the rest of my career.
So quarantine happened and I started consulting. And I had a few friends that were looking for some help and tapped me for a few projects. I did stuff that I enjoyed. I did stuff that I didn't super enjoy. Until suddenly, a mentor and dear friend of mine, Neil Jacobson, who I’d met when he was president of Geffen Records who most recently signed the label Darkroom Records (home to Billie Eilish) and so much more. He told me he was making a change from his current situation with the intention of doubling down on songwriters and producers - that he was starting his own business - and that he wanted me to help him build it.
It was an incredible opportunity and I jumped at it. I was working alongside one of my biggest mentors who I love and believe in - so the opportunity to build something with him was a dream. I learned so much from Neil and from that experience - it absolutely ignited my passion for writer and producer management: getting to work with creatives to fuel the music that artists that I love write without needing to be involved in everything else. I just get to be creatively involved - which is definitely a fundamental dream for me working in music. I want to be able to supply artists with the tools that they need to be successful and be a light for them in that.
It's a further testament to just lean into what you love because you'll get recognized for it. Neil saw something in me that I didn't even necessarily see in myself and that was just this kid that was really passionate about building and would do anything if you tapped him in. It was the right time, right place. I helped him build this company and it ignited my own flame.
You have so much passion and positivity! In the moments when you do feel doubt or uncertainty, how do you tap back into that passion?
Some clients call me “Joyful Jake” but sometimes “Joyful Jake” isn't always joyful! There are certainly hard times - we all have them. Meditation and breathing have been a really important thing for me. I don't do it as often as I know I should or want to. I think a lot of times it just comes down to perspective. I find myself ruminating on things that happened or things that I might have been frustrated about. As much as I have passion that is relentless, the belief that everything happens for a reason is one of the most fundamental things in my life. Good and bad and ugly, I remind myself that it happened for a reason. Whether I understand that or don't at the moment, I just run with it. That’s really the answer.
In an interview with Early Rising, you said the lasting impression you want to leave is: “Everyone can win at this game and you don’t have to be ruthless to do it. Just be good to those around you, share and learn from each other. It can never be said enough…a rising tide raises all ships.” What led you to have this philosophy and how do you live it day to day?
I remember we were on a plane in the early days. I was only a few years into working on music and I was on a plane with a friend who asked me if I was familiar with game theory. And he goes, “you know, the finite game and the infinite game.” I don't remember if it was particularly that we were talking specifically about an instance of music but I think we were talking about the grand scheme of music. The finite game is one winner with a limited amount of outcomes versus the infinite game which is an unlimited number of winners and unlimited number of outcomes. The thing about music is there’s only one Billie Eilish. There's not a million artists that sound like Billie and are like Billie. She is one of a kind. There's no definitive, one type of artist that can win in music. Everything is unexpected at all times. The exciting, passionate artists that are saying something and connecting with people are the ones that prevail. It’s not like De Beers with diamonds. There’s no controlled pipeline. Mind you major labels are only able to activate a few at a time. You have Billie, Dua and The Weeknd, but then you have a Noah Kahan who seemingly comes out of nowhere in a short span of time. Incredible artists will always find a way…
I was a kid that found a band on the Internet and I found myself doing things that I never thought were possible. No gatekeeper - it just happened. So who's to say that that can't happen 10,000 more times in 10,00 different ways. I just don't believe that there's only one person that can win. I never said that this is an easy business and a business that everyone can make a ton of money. But I do think that everyone can win. It's just about being passionate and relentless.
