Becoming artist managers: Interview with Dionysian artist management
Ever wondered what it’s like to start a career as an artist manager out of college?
This week I’m thrilled to feature an interview with Andrew Idarraga and Benji Sheinman, the founders of Dionysian Artist Management. Andrew and Benji met at Syracuse University and started managing artists while they were still in college. It was at SU that they met and began managing Charlie Burg - an experience that allowed them to pursue artist management full time after graduation. Since then, they have expanded their roster to include incredible artists such as Charlie Houston, mwami, and The Hails. Highly recommend adding all of them to y0ur go-to playlists!
What was the mentality you had in college that enabled you to feel like you could start a management company?
Andrew: We were really busy with other things and diverted a lot of our daily energy towards work, school, and class. Then on the side there was this passion project. We had been told that anyone could be a manager in the sense that anyone could have a talented friend. We’d also seen that the genesis of many music companies was in some college door room. It was like some person sitting with another person and saying “You’re really talented. How about I just handle all the bull shit and you can keep doing what you do.” So that’s sort of what we did except it was less like Rick Rubin Def Jam at NYU working with Run DMC and more like “we want to be managers so let’s find a client.” Then we ended up scouring the internet looking for producers and started working with producers via soundcloud.
What was your early experience like meeting Charlie Burg and convincing him to work with you two?
Andrew: We had probably been managing artists for two years at that point. With every release we learned more and more what to do. Things like how to build out a plan, what does it mean to pitch a song for blog coverage, how do you help someone make an EP. We even lost a client at that point. Someone got too big for us and got picked up by another more experienced manager. Then we met Charlie at the perfect time. Charlie had been putting out music consistently and learning more about how to write and make songs. The gaps that he needed filled were so perfectly what we could do. I remember him saying something like “I sent my music to blogs and they didn’t answer so I don’t send my music to blogs anymore.” And Benji and I were like “we can do that.” So we did that. When you’re a manager you are a conduit to someone else’s creativity. Having Charlie coming to us with a sick plan that was really inspired kind of allowed the job to do itself.
Benji: There’s one thing I would add. Our biggest asset is the ability to plan but more importantly the ability to be agile when plans have to change. Too many people nowadays see a TikTok going viral or a spotify playlist picking your song as “the overnight, this how I will become successful” story. In reality it takes mapping out all of the things that are in your control and doing them and being consistent. As long as you do those things and don’t stop, the success will come.
You two were seniors in college starting when you started negotiating the deals that allowed your careers as artists managers to become financially sustainable. What was that experience like?
Benji: It was a lot of fun and we learned a ton. I would have gone years of working in the music industry without understanding all of these crazy five line points in a record deal that I’ve now gone back and forth over with our lawyer. I’m sure on the other end of the phone the people we were negotiating with were like “what do these kids know at 22?” but we never did anything without talking to our lawyer and making sure we had a grasp on what was happening. We also understood that we had leverage in the fact that Charlie is incredible and talented and that if this company didn’t want to sign him someone else would. It was a fun and trial by fire learning experience that was awesome.
What was the mentality that helped you embrace the “trial by fire” experience? How were you able to enjoy the process of “faking it until you make it?”
Benji: I can’t speak to other parts of the entertainment industry but the ethos, at least in music, to me is “if not me, then who?” Me and Andrew were in Chinatown two nights ago picking up a giant 100+ pound TV from the 90s off of Facebook marketplace because The Hails needed it as a prop for a music video. And it was kind of like “The Hails aren’t in New York right now so if we don’t get it no one else is going to go get it.” When the deals came in, we had the same mentality of “if we don’t do it, no one else is going to do it.” I think we also had good role models and peers in the music business that told us “We did it when we were your age. We didn’t know what we were doing. You just gotta figure it out!”
Andrew: That was the biggest thing for me. I think if no one had ever been a manager, I don’t think I could have done it. I also think if no one had ever been a young manager with a talented friend, I would not have been able to do it. We had, like Benji said, really good mentorship and solid community. A lot of it was built off of a DIY scene at Syracuse. It was a big deal that I felt like, and still feel that, we have the whole groundswell of Syracuse behind us which is really nice. I interned for a manager and Benji interned for labels and agents. We had people that we could call. I don’t remember it being as fun as Benji remembers it. I remember being really stressed out about it a lot. I think the fact that we didn’t know what we were doing made us pretty good negotiators. A lot of times I felt in over my head which I think is a good thing. This is the time in our life when we should feel that way.
Were there any setbacks or times along the way where you thought “Is this worth it?” If so, how did you overcome those moments?
Andrew: Probably this morning (just kidding). I think that those moments happen in retrospect more than they happen in the moment. There weren’t many moments over covid where Benji and I thought, “Oh fuck, we’re not going to make it.” Afterwards we definitely thought, “I can’t believe we made it.”
Benji: I’ll speak on the partnership element. We tend to go through these periods in misalignment which is great. He’ll be going through it and I’ll say “No man, this is part of the journey. Imagine the book!” Then I’ll be going through it and he’ll say, “No man, this is part of the journey. We just have to get through this one part.”
What type of mindset do you look for in the artists you work with?
Benji: I feel like it has changed over the years. In the past five years, we’ve seen a lot of what works and what doesn’t work. I’m sure we’ll have a different opinion five years from now. I can say having a certain respect and admiration for the greats in any form (doesn’t matter what genre). If they have unearthed a little bit of something that’s classic in their field, they understand the importance and sheer luck that they have to play music for a living. It signals that they value the live show which is really important to Andrew and I in the digital age. Who knows if Spotify is where we will be listening to music in five years or how they will be making music. Ticket sales are the only thing that have been consistent since music was invented. That’s the first thing. The second thing is if they want to do music for a job, are they willing to do things that they don’t necessarily want to do but are in service of that? At the end of the day it is a job just like any other 9 to 5. There are tons of tasks and admin and busy work. Just like in the initial phases when you start working for a company, you don’t have an assistant and you have to do it yourself. It comes back to: Are you willing to do the work, be punctual, be consistent? Those two big elements come underneath the “Am I in love with the music and can I gel with this person?”
Andrew: It’s hard to say what liquid qualities you are looking for but I definitely think someone who is respectful of the craft but also of us. We are working in service of someone and their vision. We’re definitely looking for people that appreciate what we do for them.
It can be a long journey for your artists. What do you tell them when they are going through a tough moment or having doubts?
Benji: They are entrepreneurs too. I think that’s where my perspective comes in which I think I got from my dad. I will literally come in with the facts. When you are making art it takes you being so zoomed in on your own life. I zoom out and say “listen, when we met you, you were in college working in a coffee shop and now you’ve found people online that listen to your music that aren't just friends or family members and you do music as a full time job. You are making money to pay rent off of your art. Your 80 year old self will not be very happy to look back on this moment of self doubt. You don’t want to look back and say ‘I didn’t give it a shot because I wasn't feeling it that day or the song wasn’t hitting that day.’’” I think you would want to tell yourself to “just keep going and see what happens.” If you are already living off of music you shouldn’t quit until you are forced out (unless you are really unhappy). Don’t quit until you’re broke and you absolutely have to.
Andrew: You have to be there as a cheerleader. However, there are unique times where you have to say “you have to figure this one out.” You have to toe the line between knowing when it’s your time to support and when it’s their time to support themselves. That’s hard to know. I’ve gotten that wrong a couple times. In the short run it is easier to be there constantly at the wheel building this thing up. You want to make sure that it can stand on its own. You have to not be afraid to say anything even if it makes someone upset.
One of the lines from your company ethos is, “Honest work and true artistry will prevail over every trend and survive any transition.” How did this originate? How do you define honest work and true artistry?
Benji: We were trying to run with the Greek mythology angle that we named our company after. I think we have a certain reputation amongst peers and people that we look up to of calling people and being upfront when it comes to business. We don’t beat around the bush and try to always honor and respect the vision of an artist as opposed to saying “this isn’t going to be pop enough” or “you need to cut the last minute off this song because it won’t work well in playlists.” This is the true artistry bit.
Andrew: In a weird way as the music business has transitioned to bite size content and bite size songs and TikTok and all this stuff, everything has become more democratized in the sense that there are a lot of artists that are wildly successful that are just there. What I mean by that is you could be someone that comes out the gate swinging and claws their way to the top or you could also be someone who continually accidentally goes viral on TikTok without trying to. TV Girl is a good example. They sold out Terminal 5 in a week. And that’s a group with no manager. People get to choose. TV Girl did well before TikTok and is now doing really well. I think their songs are timeless and people will always come back to them. Charlie has this ear for timeless stuff. I remember being in LA when TV Girl was having some early viral moments and Charlie just said “These songs were so special to me in college. I just loved them.” And that made me remember that I loved them in college. They had a record called “Lovers Rock” that I would listen to when I was 19. I think it will constantly find new ways to be heard because songs take on a life of their own when they are that good.
Speaking of TikTok and Spotify, there are now a lot of different ways to build a music career. Signing with a record label out of the gate is no longer the only way to make it. Are there roads less traveled or different ways of building a career that you would like to see your artists take?
Andrew: Totally. I would love to work with someone who is confident enough to make themselves into a brand. Someone who is down to get in the weeds and do what they have to do and not be afraid to try out different things. We know people who make shoes and have partnerships. Action Bronson is an example. He makes shoes and has a cooking show. Records aren’t even really a big part of what he does and neither is touring. He is a public figure which is where I think we are headed. On the other hand, I saw a band this past weekend called Geese that a friend of ours manages. In my opinion all they want to do is rock and I’m with that! Everyone has their own way of doing things.
What advice do you have for the kids in college right now who feel they need to go get more experience before they can manage an artist. What would you say to them?
Andrew: Just do it.
Benji: Yea, just do it. You’re in college - what do you have to lose? You’re going to do the thing that you would end up doing anyways. If it doesn’t work out, you’re still at that initial plan which isn’t a bad plan.
